[Mastwatch] West Kal Mast: re possible research projects

Chuck Cannon chuck.cannon at gmail.com
Sat Mar 30 10:16:24 PDT 2019


Nigel Pitman and I have had similar discussions about montane trees and
some of the biggest woodiest fruit of Lithocarpus are in the mountains,
even a few largely isolated to ridge tops.  They should naturally end up at
the bottom of the slopes so there must be a pretty strong selective force
keeping them in place and dispersal upslope seems much more difficult in
those environments but vital to their survival.

On Sat, Mar 30, 2019 at 8:15 AM Mikaail Kavanagh <dmikekav at gmail.com> wrote:

> Good point.  I should have thought of that.  My first additional thought
>  is that it gives neram quite a challenge as it not only has to reproduce
>  successfully upstream in the sense of the general direction, it’s fruits
> have to end up  - at least for the most part - on riverbanks which in most
> places occupy only a small minority of the landscape. Mike
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On 30 Mar 2019, at 4:06 PM, Richard <corlett at xtbg.org.cn> wrote:
>
> Neram also has to disperse upstream, or the whole population would
> gradually drift down to the sea. Presumably rare but essential
> wind-dispersal events do this. Richard
>
>
>
> *From:* Mikaail Kavanagh [mailto:dmikekav at gmail.com <dmikekav at gmail.com>]
> *Sent:* Saturday, March 30, 2019 3:53 PM
> *To:* Ferry Slik
> *Cc:* Corlett_XTBG; Ghazoul Jaboury; Chuck Cannon; Ashton, Peter;
> mastwatch at lists.phylodiversity.net
> *Subject:* Re: [Mastwatch] West Kal Mast: re possible research projects
>
>
>
> Certainly should be.  I wonder if the wings on the fruits of neram (*D.
> oblongifolius*) act as oars or sails as the fruit float down river before
> a lucky few get stuck on suitable river banks - perhaps with the aid of
> their wings - where there are vacant patches of sunlight to facilitate
> growth. Good luck with the statistical analysis.
>
>
>
> Seriously, neram - as far as I know - has typical winged fruit which
> raises a question on why smaller wings have not apparently been selected
> for, in spite of the fact that almost all nerams grow out over water. This
> changes the ball game re the value of wings on fruit, in comparison with
> typical land-based dipterocarps.
>
>
>
> Mike Kavanagh
>
>
>
> On 29 Mar 2019, at 9:48 AM, Ferry Slik <ferryslik at hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> Should be possible to set up some projects to test at least some of these
> hypotheses.....
>
>
>
> Ferry Slik
> Associate Professor & Curator of the UBD Herbarium
> Faculty of Science
> Universiti Brunei Darussalam,
> Jln Tungku Link, Gadong, BE1410, Brunei Darussalam.
>
> Website
> http://www.phylodiversity.net/fslik/
> http://expert.ubd.edu.bn/profiles/johan.slik.php
>
> Plants of Southeast Asia
> http://www.asianplant.net
>
> Asian plant species synonym website
> http://www.phylodiversity.net/fslik/synonym_lookup.htm
>
> Faculty of Science
>
> http://fos.ubd.edu.bn/index.html
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> *From:* Mastwatch <mastwatch-bounces at lists.phylodiversity.net> on behalf
> of Corlett_XTBG <Corlett at xtbg.org.cn>
> *Sent:* 29 March 2019 9:19 AM
> *To:* 'Ghazoul Jaboury'; 'Chuck Cannon'; 'Ashton, Peter'
> *Cc:* mastwatch at lists.phylodiversity.net
> *Subject:* Re: [Mastwatch] West Kal Mast
>
>
>
> Don’t underestimate scatter-hoarding rodents for wingless dipterocarps.
> Recent studies show that they can disperse Fagaceae – including Chuck’s
> stone oaks - tens of metres by caching and re-caching, and big rats like
> *Leopoldamys* move them a long way in one go. Scatter-hoarding would
> select strongly against wings, since they would get caught on obstacles
> when being dragged sideways.
>
>
>
> Richard
>
>
>
> *From:* mastwatch-bounces at lists.phylodiversity.net [
> mailto:mastwatch-bounces at lists.phylodiversity.net
> <mastwatch-bounces at lists.phylodiversity.net>] *On Behalf Of *Ghazoul
> Jaboury
> *Sent:* Friday, March 29, 2019 12:04 AM
> *To:* Chuck Cannon; Ashton, Peter
> *Cc:* mastwatch at lists.phylodiversity.net
> *Subject:* Re: [Mastwatch] West Kal Mast
>
>
>
> I have been following this thread with interest. I agree that rare windy
> events have a substantial impact on dispersal. I have seen very large
> numbers of dipterocarp fruit dispersed great distances (100s of metres)
> during strong winds, albeit in rather open dry deciduous dipterocarp
> forests in Thailand. I have also seen large quantities of fruit being
> dispersed several tens of metres (at least) from dipterocarps in Sepilok,
> although this was in forest edge conditions.
>
>
>
> Genetic studies suggest that dipterocarp seed dispersal can be quite
> substantial, and while no doubt the large majority of fruit are dropped
> close to the mother tree (see Smith et al. 2018 for a multispecies
> comparative assessment of this) what really matters are those seeds that
> survive, establish, and grow.
>
>
>
> I have always been curious about why some dipterocarp species lost their
> wings. If substantial numbers of fruit do get caught in canopies and fail
> to establish, then there should be strong selection pressure against wings.
> I would expect strongly shade tolerant species to be more likely to have
> non-winged fruit. Wings are also likely to be of little value for subcanopy
> species, or those in dense forests, both in terms of dispersal function and
> shade tolerance traits (e.g., large fruit sizes). Localities that
> experience little wind such as, perhaps, sheltered riparian species, might
> be less likely to have wings than ridgetop species.
>
>
>
> Jaboury
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Mastwatch <mastwatch-bounces at lists.phylodiversity.net> *On Behalf
> Of *Chuck Cannon
> *Sent:* 28 March 2019 15:44
> *To:* Ashton, Peter <pashton at oeb.harvard.edu>
> *Cc:* mastwatch at lists.phylodiversity.net
> *Subject:* Re: [Mastwatch] West Kal Mast
>
>
>
> Great discussion, everyone.
>
>
>
> I agree with Tim Laman's remark about how these forests are largely shaped
> by rare events (that are statistically almost impossible to analyze) and
> trees do an enormous amount of bet hedging and experimentation in an
> attempt to win one of those lotteries.  A single tree probably does not
> pursue a single strategy for getting its seeds into an advantageous
> position but is simultaneously making numerous wagers.
>
>
>
> In line with Peter's observation about the ones on more specialized and
> localized habitats having poorer dispersal abilities, you see the same
> thing in Lithocarpus.  The stone oaks are another group with rather
> mysterious dispersal.
>
>
>
> Chuck
>
>
>
> On Thu, Mar 28, 2019 at 9:18 AM Ashton, Peter <pashton at oeb.harvard.edu>
> wrote:
>
> One further obs: There are a higher proportion of endemic dipterocarp
> species on ecological islands (raised podsol beaches, kerangas, humult
> sandy ukltisols over sandstone) with wingless fruit than on the widespread
> Sunda 'matrix' of loamy ultisols.
>
>
>
> Peter
> ------------------------------
>
> *From:* Mastwatch <mastwatch-bounces at lists.phylodiversity.net> on behalf
> of Mark Leighton <markleighton9 at yahoo.com>
> *Sent:* Thursday, March 28, 2019 1:45:09 PM
> *To:* Lord Cranbrook; Tim Laman
> *Cc:* mastwatch at lists.phylodiversity.net
> *Subject:* Re: [Mastwatch] West Kal Mast
>
>
>
> correct, Tim
>
>
>
> On Thursday, March 28, 2019, 2:46:24 PM GMT+2, Tim Laman <tim at timlaman.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> Greetings all,
>
>
>
> To add my two cents, I think what Peter meant mainly is that any limited
> lateral movement from the parent tree by the winged fruit is disrupted by
> the canopy below so they won’t keep moving sideways.  I don’t think a very
> large percentage of fruits get stuck in the canopy.  Most fall to the
> ground, but they certainly don’t get far.
>
>
>
> For your enjoyment, here is a shot I took of the masting Shorea spp in the
> canopy in Gunung Palung in December with one of those very handy
> new-fangled drones.  While the Shorea fruits are positioned at the twig
> tips, you can see in the image that most will not get a “clean release”
> from their own tree crown, and will just tumble down to the ground beneath
> the tree.  But selection operates on rare events, right?  What about that
> big gust of wind that comes before thunderstorms?  Could that carry a few
> seeds from the top of the crown to some distance, and they survive better
> than the mass of seedlings beneath the tree?
>
>
>
> Best,
>
> Tim
>
> <image001.jpg>
>
>
>
> On Mar 28, 2019, at 7:43 AM, Lord Cranbrook <
> lordcranbrook at greatglemhamfarms.co.uk> wrote:
>
>
>
> THere are always 1000's of seedlings around the base of parent trees,
> after a mast year. l don't think wind dispersal is very effective.
>
> Why are the wings so brightly coloured ?
>
> ln Sarawak engkebang fruits also float down the rivers
>
>
>
> *From:* Mastwatch [mailto:mastwatch-bounces at lists.phylodiversity.net
> <mastwatch-bounces at lists.phylodiversity.net>] *On Behalf Of* Mikaail
> Kavanagh
> *Sent:* 28 March 2019 04:15
> *To:* Ashton, Peter; Wong Siew Te DJN; Andreas Carlson;
> mastwatch at lists.phylodiversity.net
> *Subject:* Re: [Mastwatch] West Kal Mast
>
>
>
> Hi Friends,
>
>
>
> Interesting point, Peter. I must confess to not knowing that so many of
> the winged fruit never make it to ground level.
>
>
>
> Wong, the video that you circulated (thanks!) got me thinking about the
> relevance of the winged fruits in terms of evolutionary strategies for
> different sub-habitats and niches.  Presumably, there would be different
> selective pressures according to such differences?  In particular, has
> anyone looked at the wings' effect on floating - potentially for long
> distances - for such a riverside specialist as, for example, the Neram (*Dipterocarpus
> oblongifolius*)?
>
>
>
> Thanks for sharing.
>
>
>
> *Mike*
>
>
>
> Dato’ Dr Mikaail Kavanagh, *MBE*
>
> Mobile:  +6012 267 5775
>
> Office:   +603 6203 3138
>
> Email: dmikekav at gmail.com
>
> Skype:           mikaail.kavanagh
>
> Office:  Suite A-06-06
>
>   Plaza Mont Kiara,  2 Jalan Kiara
>
>   50480  Kuala Lumpur,   Malaysia
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On 27 Mar 2019, at 6:07 PM, Ashton, Peter <pashton at oeb.harvard.edu> wrote:
>
>
>
> Hi Andreas and mastwatchers,
>
>
>
> There have been several efforts to study the impact of dipterocarp winged
> fruit on their distance of dispersal. Bu don't forget that the vast
> majority rarely fall in a wind, and then only into the main canopy a few
> metres beneath. So studies of the comparative influence of winged versus
> winglessness on the fate of the embryo (trapped in the canopy versus
> dropping through (and then what?), survival, predation etc.) deserves study
> as well.
>
>
>
> Peter
> ------------------------------
>
> *From:* Mastwatch <mastwatch-bounces at lists.phylodiversity.net> on behalf
> of Andreas Carlson <acarlson at math.uio.no>
> *Sent:* Wednesday, March 27, 2019 1:54:08 AM
> *To:* Siew Teu Wong
> *Cc:* mastwatch at lists.phylodiversity.net
> *Subject:* Re: [Mastwatch] West Kal Mast
>
>
>
> Dear all,
>
>
>
> This movie was absolutely stunning! We have been working on understanding
> how the geometry of these flying fruits influence their flight (
> https://journals.aps.org/prl/abstract/10.1103/PhysRevLett.122.024501
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__journals.aps.org_prl_abstract_10.1103_PhysRevLett.122.024501&d=DwMGaQ&c=WO-RGvefibhHBZq3fL85hQ&r=QF7wtoDqCqPx93omg7bDZoXToRGpzsmD2pgreRf9a74&m=oEo1ZmDAtLb1DWViFO2kYJvttzDwwUn2NgZs9xNRjkc&s=yRfX3IQEdkRjsXw56pIl9QRoY70NNi19ALjC8c8aeb4&e=>
> ).
>
> Amazing to see this fruiting and fascinating flight!
>
>
>
> Thanks for sharing.
>
>
>
> Best,
>
> Andreas.
>
> —————————————
> Andreas Carlson
> Associate Professor
> Department of Mathematics
> University of Oslo
>
> E-mail: acarlson at math.uio.no <acarlson at math.uio.no>
> Phone: (+47) 228-57223
> Web: folk.uio.no/acarlson
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__folk.uio.no_acarlson&d=DwMFaQ&c=WO-RGvefibhHBZq3fL85hQ&r=QF7wtoDqCqPx93omg7bDZoXToRGpzsmD2pgreRf9a74&m=Fi5GKWYaWjhKmQFBZcQoNuz7Ibt2pwm61XO1yyIXx7o&s=wMR8kCYtS5AIksjGngDctbtM6yQzrn_ltGsDX-JS9WE&e=>
> Skype: carlsona
>
>
>
> On 25 Mar 2019, at 10:02, Siew Te Wong <wongsiew at hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> Hi all,
>
> This video was posted in FB, taken somewhere in Sibu, Sarawak.
>
> https://www.facebook.com/edgar.ong/videos/10155952528861232/
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.facebook.com_edgar.ong_videos_10155952528861232_&d=DwMGaQ&c=WO-RGvefibhHBZq3fL85hQ&r=QF7wtoDqCqPx93omg7bDZoXToRGpzsmD2pgreRf9a74&m=oEo1ZmDAtLb1DWViFO2kYJvttzDwwUn2NgZs9xNRjkc&s=3kTuXLViT1vPv-0l0R7tAj1rkKSbbR6BrMxqnUSp25o&e=>
>
>
>
> Thank you.
>
>
>
> Kindest regards,
>
> Wong
>
>
>
> Dr (Hon) Wong Siew Te, D.J.N.
>
> 准拿督黃修德荣誉博士
>
> C.E.O. and Founder,
>
> Bornean Sun Bear Conservation Centre
> email: wongsiew at hotmail.com
>
> skype: wongsiew
>
> Cell: 016-555 1256
>
>
>
> http://www.bsbcc.org.my/
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>
> http://www.youtube.com/user/BSBCC
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>
> http://twitter.com/BSBCC_SunBear
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>
>
> *"May all beings be happy, joyful, well, & at safety & peace!"*
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> *From:* Mastwatch <mastwatch-bounces at lists.phylodiversity.net> on behalf
> of Philipson Christopher David <christopher.philipson at usys.ethz.ch>
> *Sent:* Monday, March 4, 2019 6:23 PM
> *To:* Cam Webb
> *Cc:* mastwatch at lists.phylodiversity.net
> *Subject:* Re: [Mastwatch] West Kal Mast
>
>
>
> Hi Cam and all,
>
>
>
> I just returned from south India and saw some dip fruiting in the forest
> reserves in Kerala.  Being seasonal forest its perhaps a bit less relevant
> to the Borneo fruiting - but it would be interesting to link these cycles
> climatically and genetically at some point!
>
>
>
> Cheers
>
> Chris
>
>
>
> Dr. Christopher Philipson
>
> christopher.philipson at usys.ethz.ch
>
>
>
> http://www.ecology.ethz.ch/people/group-leaders.html
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.ecology.ethz.ch_people_group-2Dleaders.html&d=DwMGaQ&c=WO-RGvefibhHBZq3fL85hQ&r=QF7wtoDqCqPx93omg7bDZoXToRGpzsmD2pgreRf9a74&m=oEo1ZmDAtLb1DWViFO2kYJvttzDwwUn2NgZs9xNRjkc&s=PCLlFfCn-SmywXJrH0ZTnyy8jRFG4C-WCezPMpJafwA&e=>
>
>
>
> http://scholar.google.ch/citations?user=9J6ltyUAAAAJ&hl=en&oi=ao
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__scholar.google.ch_citations-3Fuser-3D9J6ltyUAAAAJ-26hl-3Den-26oi-3Dao&d=DwMGaQ&c=WO-RGvefibhHBZq3fL85hQ&r=QF7wtoDqCqPx93omg7bDZoXToRGpzsmD2pgreRf9a74&m=oEo1ZmDAtLb1DWViFO2kYJvttzDwwUn2NgZs9xNRjkc&s=WXh25JzF6nfly4Z5r-L9cAYPKKgXi8myBRVEO1iEJgs&e=>
>
>
>
>
>
> On 28 Feb 2019, at 18:53, Cam Webb <cam_webb at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> Thanks all, for the forest news from across Borneo (and beyond).
>
> It seems the Gunung Palung mast was big: definitely biggest since Feb
> 2010, and maybe bigger than that one. Peak fruit fall was several weeks
> ago. Dipterocarp flowering started in late Sept 2018. I’ll post more
> details when I know them.
>
> Best,
>
> Cam
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